A Conversation on Sexuality

Kylen Perry: All right, Porch. How are we doing? Are we doing okay tonight? Let's go! It's so good to be back here with you this Tuesday night. Special shout-out to everybody tuning in with us right now wherever it is you're watching from. Whether it's here this evening or at some point in the future, we're so glad you would choose to be a part of what God is doing. It happens in Dallas, but it is happening around our nation and across the globe within your generation. We love that God is… I mean, right now, he is spiritually surging within the lives of young adults all over, and we feel it. I just felt it. Did you feel that?

In worship, there's something palpable in the room, and that's something we want to be true in this space, that we would come and wouldn't just intellectually assent and learn great things, and we wouldn't just get all caught up in our feels because it feels good to come in and emote a little bit, but we would actually find a unification of those two things and we would experience God together, because he's here. Often, it's just a matter of us waking up to that reality.

So, thanks for being here. Special shout-out to all of our Porch.Live locations that are tuning in. Porch.Live Indy, Porch.Live Boise, and Porch.Live Midland, special shout-out to you guys. Hey, I'm really excited for tonight. I don't want to waste much more time. Obviously, this setup is different than normal. Last week, we cued that we're going to do a little bit of a roundtable, that we're going to spend an evening just conversating about a topic we think is really important.

To help me with it, we have a couple of special guests. We have both Timothy Ateek (TA), whom you know, elder and lead pastor here at Watermark Community Church, and then we have a very special guest returning to The Porch stage, Miss Brenna Blain. Porch, would y'all do an excellent job of helping welcome both of them to the stage at this time?

Porch, here's where we're going this evening. We set this up last week for you that we wanted to take some time tonight and have a conversation about something that is deeply relevant to our current day. We want to talk to you about sexuality. The reason we want to do it is because here at The Porch, we not only want to be relevant because we want to be cool or we want to be current; we want to be relevant because we want to be heard and we want to be helpful to you.

We realize that this is a subject that meets many of you right where you are, so we wanted to take an evening to dedicate specific time to working our way through it. In order to do so, I thought it'd be really helpful to have some friends join me. TA is here because we believe that this subject is one that shouldn't just be preached about from the stage but should be pastored from the floor.

He's here as an expression of Watermark's love for those of you in the room for whom this is a part of your story or the part of someone's story whom you know. This is our declaration to say we want to walk with you through these types of issues. We don't want to just preach about them. We really want to shepherd you along the way. So, TA, thanks for being here. Then Brenna is here because this is very much an authentic part of her experience.

So, Brenna, if you would… I know some people are familiar with you already. It was awesome to see that there was some response just because you were here not even six months ago or so. We had the joy of spending time with you then, but would you mind catching everyone else up who hasn't had the chance to learn a little bit about who you are and what your story is and why this subject is specifically something you've steeped yourself in study over and have spent time looking at the Scriptures for.

Brenna Blain: Like Kylen said, my name is Brenna. I'm 29 years old, and I think one of the two most important things about me is that I am a wife and I am a mom to two little but "big energy" boys whom I deeply love. In my job, I get to be a contemporary theologian. That's such a crazy thing to say, but I did not get there easily. I had to wrestle through some pretty significant suffering and complex things to get there.

One of the most informative things I walked through was I was born into a pastor's home. I'm a PK. That would have been really great for me except I realized in my early teens that I am, in fact, attracted to the same sex. I knew that made me incompatible with the person of Christ, or at least that's what I thought in that place.

It took a lot of questioning and even running from God, and the Lord used that to bring me back to him. I still struggle with same-sex attraction. That's a temptation that has not been taken away from me, but I believe in the faithfulness and the goodness of the Holy Spirit. So, I sit humbly before you all today that the Lord has allowed me to be here to share parts of what I have learned and what I have gone through.

The very first song we sang tonight, I actually became super overwhelmed emotionally, because I ran far away from God, and I kind of physically ran away from God. When I graduated when I was a high schooler, I moved to Maui, Hawaii, because all I wanted to do was smoke weed, date hot women, and surf. So I went there to do that, but I went there under the guise of being a missionary because I couldn't afford to get myself to Maui.

So, I applied for this missions program. I got accepted because I grew up in the church and knew how to use Christian language. I flew under the radar, ended up there, and got radically saved by the Lord. I remember I had to go home for my brother's wedding not very far into that stint. I flew home, and I remember thinking, "My parents and everyone around me are going to be shocked," because I had faked it for so long and was so convinced that everyone else was faking it too, and the moment I met the Lord, that was so transformative.

I remember being home, about to go to my brother's wedding. I was upstairs in my bathroom, and that song came on, and I felt full of the Holy Spirit for the first time in my life. So, to have that song play and be standing there and thinking about what God has done over the last 10 years has been incredibly humbling and blows my mind. So, thanks for letting me go on a tangent there.

Kylen: I think even that is just a testament to the fact that this… Yes, we have planned for this moment, yet as we were talking about earlier, we really want to be sensitive to the way in which the Spirit of God moves in this space. We want to be inviting people to his work here, and the fact that that connects to such an important and pivotal moment in your story of grace is really amazing. It's as if the Spirit sees what we're doing right now. So, I'm really eager to get into this a little bit more, and I'm really glad you're here.

Brenna, I think your story probably resonates with someone in the room, and if it doesn't resonate with someone personally, it will resonate with someone in the sense that they know someone it resonates with, so there's really no one here who can feel in themselves, "This is irrelevant." This is a wildly relevant issue, not just in our culture but to us at an individual level. For those who are resonating with it…I'm just curious…can you speak to the question of whether their sexual orientation is a sin or part of how God created them to be?

Brenna: Yeah. To be transparent with everyone, I'm a huge "manuscripter." I take notes. We talked through these questions beforehand, so I'm going to be reading through my notes so I can give you my absolute best. My first question is…Who's asking the question, and what are they struggling with? You can have a sexual orientation that is part of how God created you, and parts of that orientation can be sinful. An example would be a young woman who is attracted to men. That is the God-created and ordained model of attraction that we have been given.

However, post-fall, sin enters the world, and lust does too. Something that's interesting, when I was thinking through this question, is a world without lust is so foreign to us that I think even as Christians, especially single Christians, we do not recognize the micro-forms of lust in our life as lust. I often wonder where attraction would stop or what the depth of attraction would be as a single person pre-fall, if that makes sense. So, people with God-created orientations can still struggle with sin within that.

Another example is a sexual orientation that exists as a result of the fall. Your sexual desires have been disordered because of what has happened. Those orientations would be any attraction that falls outside of the marriage mandate, which is one man and one woman for life. Examples of this would be, like myself, attracted to the same sex. I don't believe God created me that way. It's a result of the fall.

It feels cheeky saying this, but I actually believe it. If you are a serial dater, God didn't create you that way. That is a result of the fall. And if you find yourself bored of your spouse after 15 years, God still did not create you that way, and that's a result of the fall. So, if your sexual appetite tells you, "I need a new experience or a new person or new experiences with new people or with a screen or a book to light up my imagination," God didn't create you that way, and that is a result of the fall.

Kylen: So, would you say that it's right to say that a same-sex orientation or a same-sex attraction is not sin but is a result of the fall?

Brenna: Yeah.

Kylen: But we would say that same-sex lust or same-sex action would be sin. Right?

Brenna: Yeah.

Kylen: Okay, that's really helpful. Now, TA, I'd love to speak with you for a moment and ask you… Because it's helpful to know, "Okay, my same-sex orientation is a result of the fall." Then, what is the result in our identity through redemption? Does that make sense? Even what we were visiting about earlier today. Now that we're in Christ, what is the impact of that when it comes to the way we look at our lives and the things we identify with and how we process the circumstances or feelings we have?

Timothy Ateek: The wrestle I feel when I'm trying to talk to people about what God believes about them and their sexuality is that the message people believe is "The truest thing about me is my sexuality. Like, that's the truest thing about me." I would say that in Christ, that is not even close to being the truest thing about you. The truest thing about me is not that I am a heterosexual married man. The truest thing about me in Christ is that I am a child of God.

There is nothing that is truer, and there is nothing more definite and constant than that truth, because here's the reality: I might not always be married. Let me clarify what I'm saying. My wife, heaven forbid, could die tomorrow and I am now a widower. So that status changes. The thing that is truest about me, my identity, is that I'm a child of God.

That's what Christ has done. He didn't just come to save us from hell; he came to save us into a family where we now know God as Father. Not everyone is a child of God. You're either a child of wrath or a child of God. Christ makes us children of God. I think the lie people believe is, "The truest thing about me is my sexuality; therefore, my sexuality must define me and my sexuality must drive me." That's just not true. As a child of God, that's what defines me.

So, the question I have to ask and answer is, "What does it look like for me to take my orders from my heavenly Father? What does it look like for me to embody the family values of God, and what does it look like for that to define me and drive me?" As a heterosexual married man, that requires consistent surrender to that identity. Brenna and I are on the same journey every day with the same decision if we're going to live out the truest thing about us.

Kylen: I think there are a lot of people here who, wherever they are with respect to this issue, would say, "Yes! I want that. I want to live out the truest aspect of my identity, but, God, why won't you make that easier?" There are some people here who have surely prayed, Brenna, what I'm sure is the prayer you've prayed yourself, which is like, "God, why won't you take this away?" What would you say to the person who is praying for God to take this away and it hasn't happened yet?

Brenna: With all of the examples I gave about broken orientations, in those orientations with those desires, you can have those temptations without it being a sin. We touched on that. You can have a disordered sexual desire without giving in to this. I think it's first really important to ask where we see that in the biblical text. If it's true, where do we see that?

In both Matthew 4:1-11 and Luke 4:1-13, it says, "Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil." So, the first question is…Did Jesus sin? No. The second question is…Was Jesus tempted? In Galatians, it says, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."

There's this argument that lives within some faith cultures that says same-sex attracted people need to see a decrease or a complete removal of their same-sex attraction or temptation in order to lead in the church or even to be seen as spiritually healthy or mature. I don't see that in the text. What I do see is the sign for spiritual health and maturity is that the Holy Spirit is taking over more of your thoughts and more of your actions, and that is what we define as self-control.

So, I think it's interesting that in this case, with this thought, the fruit of the Spirit isn't "and the diminishing of temptation" but self-control, indicating that if these things persist… So, if you've been praying for your same-sex attraction to be taken away and it hasn't been and it persists, or even if there are seasons where the temptation grows, that in itself does not disqualify you. The question doesn't lie in what the percentage of your current temptation is but rather what your dependence on the Holy Spirit is. Christ was greatly tempted. Philippians 2:6-8 says:

"…who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross!"

There's this complex theological idea happening here that Jesus, while retaining his full divinity, set aside the privilege of his divinity and deity and Christ assumes humanity to his divinity. The reason this matters is that people hear that Christ was tempted, and it's easy for us to assume it didn't have any weight on him because of his deity, but here, Christ sets that aside.

Christ not sinning when he was tempted is not like an athlete using steroids. I think that's often the thought. It's like he has this superhuman extra boost. What Christ not sinning in the face of temptation is actually like is more like an athlete who has chosen not to consume ultra-processed food. He didn't use a superhuman ability. It's actually that he chose not to participate in the sin that degrades humanity, dulling out and dampening the leading of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

So, if that's true, if Christ being fully God stepped into being also fully human, we have to ask, "How did he face such horrific temptation and do it faithfully?" The answer we see is in the beginning of all four gospels. When Jesus is baptized, he comes out of the water, and what happens? The Holy Spirit descends on him. The crazy thing is that gift is available to all of us.

So, if you have been praying for God to take this temptation away from you… Kylen already said it, but I have prayed that prayer. There were four years of my life where I prayed that prayer every single night. You need to know that if his answer is "No" or if his answer is "Not yet," the Holy Spirit was not just sufficient but immeasurably more for Christ and, therefore, is immeasurably more for you, no matter what your temptation is.

I love that in Corinthians, Paul addresses temptation. In the first part he says, "No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind." In that part he's saying, "If you are tempted, no matter what it is, it's normal." You might have the thought in your brain, like, "No one else struggles with this." That is a tool of Satan to keep you isolated from sharing in community. Your temptation is not unique to you. Everyone has struggled with something.

Then Paul goes on and says, "And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it." This was written to the church in Corinth. Corinth was a huge port city that was inundated with sexual misconduct.

One of the main things that took place in Corinth was temple worship, and one of the main temples there was the temple of Aphrodite. The way you worshiped in that temple was through sex. Any and every sexual engagement you can imagine was taking place in the city. Now, also, this was not frowned upon. This was widely known. If you came into money at this point in time, it would be a very normal brag and thing to do to say, "I am going to worship at the temple of Aphrodite," and everyone knew what you were talking about.

Paul is talking to a church that has been established in this very city, and he's saying these things because, earlier, he talks about this list of sins that I think many of us have heard, including sexual immorality and homosexuality, and he's saying, "As some of you once were." I love that phrase, because it's like Paul is writing to this church, remembering, "Before you loved God, you were worshiping at this temple every single night."

We've all struggled with temptations we needed to seek accountability for. I think, a lot of times, accountability for us includes removal or distance. You can imagine being people in Corinth who struggled with those things who came to know the Lord and then decided, "We have to be Christians in this city," and what temptation that would present itself. Every single day, you are seeing the people of your past life whom you used to live with, and they're probably saying, "Hey, why don't you just come join us again? Hey, what happened? Hey, why aren't you going out with us?"

Paul doesn't say, "Yeah, get up and leave the city"; he says, "The Holy Spirit is sufficient for you." So, I think we have to understand that our temptation is understood because Christ was tempted, and we are not left to ourselves to battle ourselves. We have the Holy Spirit to lean on in that.

Kylen: I can imagine the thought of daily surrendering, constantly, consistently, continually taking my desires and putting them at the altar, can feel like, "Okay. Here I go again. I'm always having to give something up in order to get you, Jesus. I'm always having to give something over in order to receive the kind of life you want," and it can feel really taxing.

TA, we were talking a little bit about this earlier today, so I'd love to ask if you could speak briefly into… Surrender is not a disincentivizing proposition; it's actually a great invitation. Why is that? Why is it that when I surrender myself to Jesus, it's not just "I'm giving over, I guess, what I want"; it's actually, instead, a really beautiful exchange?

TA: Yeah, we always think of surrender as giving something up, which it is. It's laying our lives down. The call is to come and die. Yet so often, we're looking at what we have to give up and never looking at what we get to embrace. If you struggle with same-sex attraction… And, Brenna, this is where you can help. You're not just constantly saying, "I don't get to have that." And this isn't just for same-sex attraction. This is for any desire that is contrary to what God wants for you right now.

It's so easy to just focus on what God is asking you to give up instead of what he's inviting you to embrace. The reality is that God wants us to be satisfied in him. I was talking with a friend earlier, and we were talking about same-sex attraction, same-sex relationships. One of the ways he put it was in this circumstance, God has told us "No," and he related it to his kids. Like, if his kids ask for something and he tells them "No…" Like, "Hey, Dad, I want to go and spend the night at this person's house."

"I know you want to, but you can't. The answer is 'No.'"

"But, Dad, I really want to."

"Yeah, but the answer is 'No.'"

"But, Dad, you don't understand."

"No, I do understand, but the answer is 'No.'"

A question he has asked his kids is, "What is keeping you from letting me tell you 'No'?" Which I think is a really interesting question. "What's keeping you from letting me tell you 'No'?" I think what it comes down to… And this is just the Christian life. One of the reasons we have a hard time letting God tell us "No" is we aren't convinced, if we let him tell us "No," that in the end he will be good enough in himself for us. And that's for all of life. There are going to be times in our lives where God tells us "No."

You might be battling chronic pain, and you pray for healing, and God tells you "No." Our tendency is to say, "Well, then God isn't good because he doesn't heal." Yet what if it is through that pain that God wants you to taste and see that he's good in a way that you wouldn't if he did just heal you like that? So, that's where we all, as followers of Jesus Christ… That's what faith looks like. If we just want to boil it down, faith in Christ is believing that God is good enough to tell you "No" and to give you himself and it makes that "No" good.

Kylen: Yeah, that's right. I remember I had a seminary professor who once said (and I think I've shared this in here before), "God will lead you places you would not go to teach you things you need to know." I was like, "Well, that sounds horrible. Can't you find another way to teach me, God?" There's a litany of things he wants to teach you.

For some of you, it's not even in this issue, but it's in some area of suffering or difficulty right now. You need to know God is trying to teach you more about himself by way of whatever that thing is, but (TA, you just summarized it perfectly) what God is trying to lead you to is the knowledge that he's better. It's not even like, "I guess he's good enough"; it's that he is better. He's better than whatever else it is you want.

Now, some people here who are struggling with same-sex attraction or are finding themselves in even, potentially, a same-sex relationship would say, "Okay, but can't I have my cake and eat it too? Can't I walk with Jesus and also continue to be in a same-sex relationship?" Brenna, I would love it if you could speak to that question, because I think that's probably the most important question we could ask tonight: Is it possible to be in a same-sex relationship and still live a Christian life?

I just want to give you permission. You can take as much time as you want on this one, because I think this one deserves as much time as you think it actually needs. So, what do you think? Is it possible to be in a same-sex relationship and still live a Christian life?

Brenna: Yeah, this is where I took the most time with my notes, so we're going to go down a rabbit trail, because I think it's extremely important that we actually do the work.

Kylen: We're good with that. Yes? All right. Let's go. Let's do it.

Brenna: I would wager a high percentage of people in this room already had an answer to that question in their head when you asked it. What I would not wager is the percentage of "Yes" versus "No," because for those of us in this room who are between the ages of 20 and 30, we've already established that this is a personal question. We either love someone who's same-sex attracted, we are someone who is same-sex attracted, or we've been confronted about our beliefs on sexuality because someone knows we at least frequent church. So, already, there are layers to this question that I think deserve walking through.

The first layer is…What is a Christian life? There are plenty of Christians who are in what I would call habitual sin. They're having sex outside of marriage. They are chronically domineering. They're intrinsically greedy. We all have heard the stories or maybe have been personally impacted by pastors who are harsh or quarrelsome or abusive.

What's confusing is that you can appear on the outside as someone who loves Jesus. You can go to church every Sunday. You can know the Bible. You can even preach the Bible and talk about what it says but so deceive yourself, as it says in James, into thinking that Christianity is a list of actions weighed, a checklist you have to go through.

Really, that thought that "I just have to show up to church, read my Bible, and do these things" is either just a product of religious guilt, which is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit (we are compelled by love and relationship to do those things, not compelled by guilt or something you were taught or shamed into), or those actions are the guise of moral superiority. Both groups miss the fact that it is not about prescriptions but compelled by Christ's radical love.

So, you can be a cultural Christian and reasonably or even unknowingly unsubscribe to whatever parts of the text don't satisfy or serve your flesh because you are not being ruled by the Holy Spirit but rather being deceived that relationship with Christ is only moral obligation. To follow Jesus is a whole other story.

In Mark, chapter 2, Jesus is walking with the crowd, and he's teaching them, and up along the way they see Levi the tax collector. Tax collectors were greatly hated by the Jewish majority because they were seen as traitors. They were raised Jewish and decided to start working for Rome, and they would often use their power of working for Rome to abuse their fellow Jews by taking more money.

So, I can imagine, as this crowd is walking with Jesus, they see this tax collector up in front of them, and they're thinking, "Jesus is going to call this guy out because he is living in sin. He is daily abusing the people of God." That thought makes sense when they're walking with this teacher who's known for some pretty radical interactions.

But what happens is not only shocking to the Jewish people who were with Jesus at the time, but probably deeply shocking to Levi as well. Christ walks to him and says two words: "Follow me." When you read ahead, you get to this part where it says Jesus is eating with sinners and tax collectors, and you have to be thinking, "How did he get there?" Right? Like, how did he get in this company?

I can't help but think that when the people in the town who were also on the outskirts of the religious majority, the people who had been shamed, beaten, mocked, or disregarded… When they saw that Jesus approached Levi with compassion and not condemnation, maybe they thought, "Maybe this Jesus also wants to see me too." So, they have a meal together where Jesus gets to present himself, the light and truth, to these people.

Now, the interesting thing is that following Jesus required Levi to decide to never go back to that tax booth, the tax booth he built that was a place of comfort, ease, and a good life that served his flesh. Levi could not follow Jesus if he did not leave that life behind. That was the decision. And this narrative is not just for those who are same-sex attracted.

I think we've all built tax booths that we've dwelt in, that we've found comfort in, that we've benefited from, but to follow Jesus means to leave our self-desires behind us, understanding that following Christ on the narrow road leads us away from self-satisfaction, self-reliance, and self-worship, but it also leads us closer and closer to the object of our affection and devotion.

The way this walking the narrow path is described in the biblical text is, first, self-sacrifice. Romans 12:1 says, "Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship." It is also self-crucifixion. Luke 9:23 says, "And he said to all, 'If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.'" Then, in Galatians 5, it says, "So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh."

I find that people are commonly willing to accept that life with Jesus includes some amount of personal sacrifice, especially in places that match areas of secular moralism, like expending your time or your money or your talents for other people, but it is much harder to accept the idea that sacrifice and a crucified life would mean denying self-pleasure.

So, that's the second layer: In your life, who gets to define right and wrong? Oftentimes there is this interjection that says, "I'm caring for the oppressed. I'm loving my neighbor. I'm even turning the other cheek, but these verses couldn't possibly mean denying myself the desire I feel if it isn't harmful to any other person involved, if it's monogamous and loving. It can't mean that I would have to deny myself that."

Dr. Preston Sprinkle essentially says, "The same Lord who said, 'Love everyone' also said, 'Don't lust. Don't worry. Don't hate. Don't fornicate. Don't be greedy. Don't retaliate,' and a whole host of other things that confronted, not reaffirmed our desires. The 'Love everybody' argument rightly prioritizes love but wrongly defines it.

Jesus tells us to 'love one another as I have loved you,' and that last part is important. When Jesus loved his disciples, he didn't always (or usually) affirm their behaviors or desires. It's worldly love, not Christian love, that says, 'Because I love you, I'll affirm everything you desire to do and everything you believe to be true about yourself.'"

So, the true recognition within these Scriptures that talk about a crucified life is they aren't being spoken vaguely. They are attached to an entire body of God-breathed, inerrant, infallible Scripture. That means God makes it known to us what walking on the narrow path looks like. In John 14, Jesus tells his disciples, "Hey, if you love me, keep my commands." In James… I love how frankly James writes. He says, "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says."

So now we ask…What does the text say about sex, about romantic relationships, and about fornication? That's the third layer. One of the answers I often hear is, "Jesus had no framework for loving, monogamous same-sex relationships, so that's why Jesus never mentioned same-sex relationships but only mentions same-sex abuse."

The first thing to note is that adult men abusing teenage boys was common and also clearly condemned in ancient Jewish writings. However, there is also evidence that Jewish authors disapproved of all forms of same-sex sexual relations, not just exploitative ones. We have a handful of ancient letters that say that that also reference consensual same-sex acts without any indication of coercion or pedophilia, showing a broader disapproval. Then, often in the church, pastors will quote Josephus. For example, Josephus condemns same-sex relationships in the context of marriage, emphasizing a natural male/female union.

So, first, the Bible is not just talking about abusive relationships or harmful relationships. Secondly, the question of same-sex monogamy in marriage… Jesus doesn't name that because whenever he's talking about marriage, it's assumed that he is upholding the God-ordained covenant that marriage inherently involves, what has been cited and said in Genesis. In other words, Jesus is always affirming what God has already spoken.

So, we can see that same-sex relationships were known in Jesus' time. It was not uncommon within the Roman Empire or culture. There were Roman emperors, two of them, specifically, during Jesus' time who had very public wedding ceremonies with men, and many historical sources talk about this. So, all that means Jesus' rejection of same-sex relationships was not limited to abusive and non-consensual acts, because all of it existed in his time. He would have specified if there was one facet of a same-sex relationship that was God-ordained.

And while Jesus doesn't explicitly name same-sex relationships when you look through the text, first of all, Paul does. It's in there. He talks about it in Romans, he talks about it in Corinthians, and he also talks about it in 1 Timothy. Then, in Matthew and Mark, we see Jesus use the Greek term porneia, which generally means sexual misconduct that is outlined in Leviticus, talking about moral law. Porneia is a catchall term translated for us in our Bibles as sexual immorality.

Then, while Jesus doesn't explicitly name same-sex relationships, we see that God does in Old Testament law. He does that in Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13. So, the text does address same-sex desires. This is where we often hear about the next question, which is "Okay. They talk about it in the Old Testament, but didn't Jesus show up and do away with Old Testament law?"

There's some nuance to be understood here, because I think when we see arguments in the public space about same-sex relationships, we often see people say, "Well, you eat shellfish, and you wear clothes that have different kinds of material woven into them." So there's an understanding of what the laws are and what is continued.

Christ fulfilled the sacrificial system through his death and resurrection. Ceremonial sacrificial laws have been met, but that doesn't mean they have been undone. They've been fulfilled through Christ's actions, which is why we no longer slaughter animals. Moral law is a different kind of law. Moral law is an expression of God's very character. When we look at the moral law, it's for those of us who serve him. We need to represent his character. We should not be falling into adultery or idol worship or murder or theft.

God expands on this with the Israelites, specifically in Leviticus. The question is…What did Jesus do with the moral law? When you read through the Gospels, you can see in the three years of Jesus' earthly ministry, he consistently pulls out and represents Old Testament moral law, often clarifying the missed intentions by the Jewish majority.

So, he says, "Hey, you've taken this thing, and you've twisted it and created loopholes, because you do not understand that this is for your benefit," therefore, carrying over a decent amount of old covenant morality and obedience laws to the new covenant. In Matthew 19, Jesus improves upon divorce, and in Matthew 5, Jesus is preaching the Sermon on the Mount, and we get a deeply clarifying picture of this.

He says, "This whole entire time, you've thought that it is only about murder, but I actually care about the hatred welling up in your heart. This whole time, you thought it was only about intercourse, and I actually care about how you look at someone and what you think about in your head and in your heart toward other people's bodies. You only go so far as to love your neighbor, but what it's actually about is a radical love that transforms you that would make you able to love your enemy and pray for those who harass and mistreat you."

Jesus takes the moral law and says, "You've missed the point. It's not about the checklist; it is about the heart of God being conveyed to the people around you." I think it's pretty incredible that the way Christ fulfills this moral law is, again, by giving us the Holy Spirit so we can actually have the ability to obey, not set aside.

This is foreshadowed in Ezekiel. He says, "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws." So, the moral laws given in the Old Testament surrounding sexuality in marriage not only carry over, but Christ both raises the bar and enables us to be obedient to them by sending the Holy Spirit.

So, after we've walked through all of this, the question is…Is it possible to be in a same-sex relationship and still follow Jesus? The answer… And I need you to hear this again. This is a girl who realized she was gay when she was 14 years old, who prayed for four years to be made straight, who realized, "That probably isn't going to happen."

The answer I've found myself unearthing from the biblical text is no, I cannot bow to the god of my sexual desires while also bowing to Jesus. It doesn't work. Every time Paul talks about the sin of same-sex relations, he clearly communicates that habitual, unrepentant pursuit of our desires results in separation from God.

But we also have to acknowledge we are quick to forget every other person listed and named by Paul. The church has unequally called out those in same-sex relationships outside of the church while it has also placated those who are greedy, who cope unhealthily, who habitually gossip, who are harsh and not gentle, and those who abuse within the church instead of also urging them to repent, lest they go from the pews or the pulpit straight to hell.

So, while you cannot be in a same-sex relationship and actively follow Christ on the narrow road, you also cannot be a jerk and follow Christ. We are all in desperate need of the transforming work of the Holy Spirit in our lives in order to submit and sacrifice our desires in exchange for life on the narrow path with Christ. One of the most compelling things to me is a relationship with Jesus is the only situation in life where the prize at the end also walks with us the entire way there.

Kylen: That's really good, Brenna.

TA: Can we just respond to that real quick?

Kylen: You know, when we were stepping into this conversation tonight, I just knew… So frequently, whenever this conversation is discussed from church platforms, it's done at one end of the spectrum or the other. It's done under the banner of truth, which ends up leading to an insensitivity, religious bigotry, and bullying of people who are deeply struggling with something that is not just theoretical; it's very personal to them. But the other side is a group that wildly advocates for grace, even to the point that they would redefine the Christian sexual ethic.

The voice you don't often hear speaking into this issue is the voice that I hope you've heard tonight. It's a much more nuanced voice that grabs hold of truth in one hand and grabs hold of grace in the other hand and brings them to the center in the person of Jesus and says, "This is a man full of conviction. There is a way to walk with God, but he is simultaneously full of compassion. He, the prize which awaits you at the end of your life, will walk with you as you make your way toward him."

Brenna, thank you for helping us navigate the nuance of this. So beautiful. And not just unpacking it theologically but really sharing yourself with us. TA always says, "God hasn't given us a story to hide; he has given us a story to tell," and we're really grateful that he has given you your story and that you're willing to tell it to all of us. TA, would you be willing to pray for us as we close this time? Then I'll share some announcements and we can dismiss.

TA: I'm going to pray, but let me just say this, as a pastor here who believes so strongly in what God is doing right now in the lives of young adults. This right here, what's happening on Tuesday nights, is my favorite thing that is happening on this campus. I love this place. Any chance I get to come here, I want to be here, because I believe that what God is doing here is so important. We have just had the privilege of sitting here… Brenna, how old are you?

Brenna: Twenty-nine.

TA: She's 29. This is a young adult. Did you see how her life has been shaped by God's Word? I don't know how many Scriptures she just shared, but everything she just shared was so rooted in the Word of God. I just want to speak that into your lives and say that can be you too. If you want, you can know the Word of God like that. Your life can be transformed by the power of the Spirit with the Word of God in your hands.

I believe in you. I really do. This whole idea of "Gen Z is biblically illiterate…" I'd say I'm looking at a room full of people who have a hunger for God. So let me just say… God in his kindness has given us his Word, but just to speak to… Brenna mentioned the Holy Spirit so many times. Paul says in Ephesians, chapter 1:

"…that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion…"

Let me just tell you what that said. The same power that raised Christ from the dead is available to you. If you go to Romans 8, do you know what it tells you? That power is actually the Spirit of the living God that Christ asked the Father to give to us. So often, we live with this mindset of "I'm a stereotypical single young adult male." No. If you're in Christ, you are a child of the God of the universe who has gifted you the Spirit of Christ who just happens to be the power that raised Christ from the dead. So you have the power.

Hey, friends, I'm just telling you, fully surrender to the identity you have in Christ, being a child of God, and just watch what happens when you trust his Word and surrender fully to God's Spirit and his power at work in you. Brenna is a model of that. Just watch what happens. Let me pray.

Lord, I pray for every person in this room. God, thank you that you're a God who's very personal, that you see every person in this room. You know every person's name. Your affection for every person in this room is very, very deep, God, that in your love for us, you would send your Son, and you, eternal Son of God, in love, would take on flesh and live perfectly in the midst of temptation, the greatest temptation of which was to come down off the cross, yet you endured the cross, despising the shame, and you conquered Satan, sin, and death through your resurrection.

I just thank you that your saving grace is available to every person in this room. I think about what John 1:12 says. "For as many as received him, he gave the right to become children of God." I think about what 1 John 3:1 says. "See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God."

So, I pray for a generation of young men and women who would truly believe that the truest thing about them is that you, God of the universe, look at us, as a perfect heavenly Father, and delight to call us your sons and daughters. You haven't left us to ourselves. You haven't asked us to become something that you are not willing to form us into by your Spirit, and in your kindness you've given us your Word so we can know your ways and walk in them.

So, I pray that you would raise up a generation of men and women who would cling to you. Lord, we're all on this journey together, and I pray that we all would live surrendered, surrendering our sexuality to you. The goal isn't heterosexuality; it's holy sexuality, Lord, that our lives would be defined by you. We need you. We love you. In Jesus' name, amen.

Kylen: Porch, would y'all do a great job of helping me thank TA and Brenna? Hey, we can also throw up those resources. I would love for you all to see a few books that we would love to commend to you on this topic that Brenna has shared with us specifically that we think could be of great help to you. These are listed right here behind me. If you want more information on this topic to become more theologically informed on engaging this topic around sexuality, these are wonderful resources.

Then, I would love to commend to you another book, which is a book our friend Brenna authored herself. It's a book called Can I Say That? It is all about asking difficult questions to and of Jesus. It's available wherever you want to buy books. You also need to know that Brenna is going to be spending some time with us right after this in our Equipping Night, which is outside and up in the Loft, where she's going to be unpacking becoming a thinking and asking Christian.

We also want to take a little moment and share with you that… Some of you have been coming around for a while, and we previewed this last week, but this Labor Day, we are taking time and going back out to Sky Ranch where we're going to be jumping into Launch 2025. I don't know how you feel about that. We're pretty excited for it.

We wanted to stand here in front of you and say if you don't have plans for Labor Day, or even if you do, you have our permission to bring whoever those plans are with out to Sky Ranch and join us for Launch, because it is going to be an amazing time. You can check out more information at theporch.live/launch to get more information. Go ahead and mark your calendars, because tickets drop on June 3. Next week, we will be right back here continuing in our series Revive. Until then, go in peace to love and serve the Lord, and join us at Equipping Night.